#157 Surviving Narcissistic Abuse with Katherine Miura

What if the person who hurt you the most was also the one who claimed to love you?

In this eye-opening episode of the Healing Through Love Podcast, we speak with Katherine Miura—a licensed therapist, survivor of narcissistic abuse, and fierce advocate for emotional healing. Katherine’s unique perspective as both a mental health professional and someone who has lived through the manipulative web of narcissism offers a deeply empathetic and practical approach to healing.

Katherine candidly shares her own journey of recovery after enduring emotional abuse and how it led her to become a specialist in narcissistic abuse recovery. Her mission? To help others recognize the red flags, break free from the cycle of abuse, and rebuild their lives with clarity and confidence.

Listeners will learn the psychological signs of narcissistic manipulation, how to rebuild trust in themselves, and why emotional boundaries are essential to long-term healing. Katherine also discusses the internalized shame many survivors carry and how education, therapy, and community support can be the catalyst for lasting transformation.

Whether you’re in a toxic relationship or on the path to recovery, this episode is filled with insight, compassion, and hope.

🎧 Listen now to start reclaiming your truth and power.

 📥 Share this episode—it could change someone’s life.

💡 Three Key Takeaways:

1. Recognize Subtle Signs of Narcissistic Abuse – Understand how narcissists manipulate and control through emotional tactics.
2. Rebuild After Trauma – Learn actionable steps to restore self-trust, worth, and confidence.
3. Set Boundaries That Protect Peace – Discover how emotional boundaries are essential for healing and freedom.

✨ CONNECT WITH KATHERINE

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/narcissisminsights

Website: https://www.katherinemiura.com/

📍 PROMOTION:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/narcissisminsights

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Transcript

Voiceover | 00:02
. Welcome to another episode of Healing Through Love. Each week, we share ideas, experiences and resources to increase the awareness of domestic and family violence and to empower survivors to grow and thrive. We talk with experts who share their advice. Or with people who have experienced abuse, no matter where they are on their journey. This is all about healing through love. And now, here are your hosts. Sharlene Lynch and Rose Davidson. 

 Rose | 00:42
Hello and welcome to the Healing Through Love podcast. I'm Rose Davidson and together we're shining a light on hope, resilience and transformation in the journey to end domestic violence. Each week we bring you inspiring interviews with changemakers, survivors, advocates and experts who are making a difference in the lives of those affected by domestic and family violence. Whether you're on your healing journey or supporting someone who is, this is your space for powerful stories, practical tools and heartfelt inspiration. Let's heal through love. My guest today is Katherine Miura and Katherine's going to be discussing with us insights and hope in navigating narcissistic abuse. And we sort of all know what that is, but I'm sure that Katherine's going to share some further insights with us. Now, Katherine. Is a licensed marriage and family therapist with a specialization in healing and advocacy within the critical realm of narcissistic abuse. She has a busy private practice and she leverages her deep personal experience of survival and training to forge a platform that educates, inspires and initiates essential conversations. Her work focuses on facilitating the healing journey of those devastated by manipulative narcissists and emphasises education to recognise the signs of narcissism. Effectively. Katherine, it's my very great pleasure to welcome you to the Healing Through Love podcast. 

 Katherine | 02:19
Thank you so much for having me, Rose. 

 Rose | 02:22
Tell me a little bit about your background and if you don't mind sharing and how you ended up being a therapist. 

 Katherine | 02:30
- Sure. My dad's a narcissist. 
 So I have personal experience with narcissism. I married a narcissist. And after our marriage broke up, but after that, I worked with a lot of domestic violence victims. And I worked at a company that was run by a narcissist. 
 So it's been... Yeah. I've learned a lot from personal experience and clinical experience... I think my clients have taught me a lot and you know I've learned what works what doesn't work and it's shaped how I approach I approached the problem and the issue. That's kind of my background right there. 

 Rose | 03:23
Beautiful. Yeah. Do people that, are brought up in a narcissistic household as children, do they attract narcissism, narcissistic people in their adult life, do you think? 

 Katherine | 03:40
I really believe they do because you're basically grown to attract narcissists by the way you were raised. A lot of times you're not allowed to have boundaries. You become a people pleaser because you work so hard to please a narcissist... And... You put your needs last. You, anytime they want something, you jump. 
 So... And plus with the narcissistic rage, you know, you learn to avoid being a target as much as possible. 
 So I think a lot of victims have some history of abuse, if you dig deep enough, I found that to be true. 

 Rose | 04:29
What are the signs we should be looking out for? Katherine in a narcissist. 

 Katherine | 04:37
Okay, this is my focus right now to educate, to bring awareness, because the big problem is there is no consensus on what narcissistic abuse is. You know, the... NPD, we have a diagnostic criteria, but as far as how do you tell the difference between narcissistic abuse, physical abuse, you know, the other types of abuse. And because there are no telltale signs, there are no scars or bruises, there's no way for you to really know what's going on. 
 So, you know, I did find a definition. Of narcissistic abuse and it talks about how it happens, it occurs when an abuser constructs a false perception. Of someone else's reality in order to control them. 
 So if you look at that definition, it tells you right there, there's a lot of like deception going on. You know, there's construction of things that aren't real. And if you take it that way, it's like the narcissist really spins a web, right? Of deception. It takes time for the victim to kind of fall into place, but the bottom line is control. They need control. They need a supply. And unfortunately, a lot of people assume that narcissists are like everybody else. That, you know, let's go to couples counseling. Let's fix our problems. Let's, you know, they do not go into a relationship. 
 Like a normal person. It's all about what do I get out of it? 
 So, you know, and it's about power and control. So they need strength reflected back to them by the victim. They need that because internally they're very broken people. They self-load. They can't stand themselves. 
 So they need. Other people to reflect strengths. And What I've been working on in my course is showing that You're actually the stronger one. The narcissist is actually very weak... And the victim is the one who can handle reality and move on with their lives. The narcissist has to go to another supply. 
 So... To me... 
 You know, when you look on the internet, there's a lot of talk about the narcissist, this, the narcissist, that, and, you know, they're, you know, they beat you up and all that. But there's not much talk about how strong the victim really is. If they... Change their mind shift if they see the truth. They can actually... I know. Shift their strength and become stronger if they understand what's really going on. Because when they say no, and they leave, the narcissist falls apart. There's nothing of substance to keep them going. They have to find another supply. I don't know if the book does that. 

 Rose | 08:20
Sorry, can someone be a narcissist and or have narcissistic tendencies and no one can pick up on it? 

 Katherine | 08:29
The true narcissist would meet the diagnostic criteria for narcissism, but, you know, there are people that have traits, but they don't meet the full criteria. 

 Rose | 08:45
Yeah, that can be a little bit unsettling, I suppose, for a survivor that, you know, they know that the abuser or the perpetrator has these tendencies, but they can't really pinpoint that. What the behaviour is that they're displaying. 

 Katherine | 09:05
Well, They do this. They do. Okay. When I learned that my dad was a narcissist, The next thing that really blew my mind was that I found a declassified document from the CIA on brainwashing. And I looked at that list and I realized that my dad... Did that to me. That he brainwashed me. And it's a process, but it's breaking down the victim's will. 
 So that they can control, they can get what they want out of you. One of the things they do is cycling between kindness and cruelty. And victims often get caught up in that because they're working so hard to please the narcissist But, you know... They might say, okay, that's good. But then, you know, it's like, It's not good enough. 
 So the victim ends up trying and trying to make the narcissist happy. But it's it has an addictive side to it because When you cycle between kindness and cruelty, you create intermittent reinforcement, which is addictive. And that in itself makes it hard to break the relationship. It makes it hard to get free of it. 
 So there's certain things. You know, that the narcissist does that, Keeps the relate keeps the victim trapped. And makes it almost impossible to get out. 

 Rose | 10:50
Yeah, I, as a child, my father was a narcissist and, he was sexually abusive towards me and, So I ran away when I was 14 because I just couldn't put up with the pressure the beatings and then, you know, the kindness and then the verbal abuse, the mental abuse that he, you know, would. Would foster on me all the time. And, you know, if I didn't do things, and you're right, if you don't do things to please them, you feel like you're not enough, and you're doing something wrong. And that holds true in a marriage or a relationship or any of those things. 
 Yeah, I think. You know, my current husband has narcissistic tendencies. He's got Alzheimer's now, so he doesn't understand that those tendencies are still there. But you know i feel like you know that I’ve been living with a narcissist for like 35 years you know not he doesn't have all of the traits but he displays some of them And, you know, it took me a number of years to realize that that's the type of behaviour I'd been living with. And I wasn't going to put up with it anymore. 

 Katherine | 12:11
Good. 

 Rose | 12:13
Unfortunately, I'll still have to look after him until I can find a place to put him into care. But that makes it a bit challenging because, you know, some of the. Conversations we have get a bit heated now and you know they Yeah. Had been calm for a number of years. 
 Yeah, it's challenging on my mental health, but I'm sure that, you know, he's... Equally challenged in the fact that he's got Alzheimer's now and he doesn't understand that his behaviour is not acceptable. 

 Katherine | 12:44
- Well, there's things you can do to protect yourself. One of them is, I don't know if you've heard of gray rocking? 

 Rose | 12:55
No, I haven’t

 Katherine | 12:55
Okay. Gray rocking is when you make yourself less appetizing to the narcissist. 
 So what you do is you avoid eye contact, you show minimal emotion, you act bored, you give short answers. The reason being they're looking to create drama and distress because they feed off of your pain. 
 So when you make yourself uninteresting to them, they stop. Because there's nothing for them to go after. The other thing you can do is just agree with everything. Because that way there's no conflict. 
 Right? That's hard. 

 Rose | 13:40
To agree with. I know. I'm so strong-willed that, you know, I don't agree with stuff that comes out of his mouth. 

 Katherine | 13:48
I know. But the thing is, if you... Let him do his thing and you don't respond, you're not giving him what he wants. You're robbing him of his prize. And he will have nothing. And that means that if you keep doing it long enough, he won't go after you anymore. It's a process. 
 Yeah, because you, it's like, I think of it like your pain is like you turning yourself into a stake or a drumstick. When you make yourself unappetizing, they don't want to go after you. 

 Rose | 14:33
Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. What other strategies can, you know, other than leaving, obviously, what other strategies if, for whatever reason that they... Can't leave immediately. What are some strategies other than this grey rocking that you spoke about that they can use to help themselves, you know, heal. 

 Katherine | 14:57
Well, the thing I learned recently is I know what they're saying is very hurtful and painful for the victim. You know, it's cutting them down. It's saying they know where your wounds are. 
 So they say things to just stick it into that wound and make it bigger. But the thing that if you can wrap your head around the fact that It's not there yet. It's not you. It's actually their issues, their projections of how they feel about themselves that they're trying to shove down your throat. It's not you. Actually, if you can shut the door... And keep yourself separate from what they're saying and realize this is your junk. It's not my junk. And I refuse to accept it. It's when you take it in, when they attack you and you swallow it, that it becomes yours. But it doesn't have to be yours. You can shut the door on it and you can say, you know what? This is your junk. It's not my junk. I know my stuff. This isn't it. And you can kind of put up a wall, or shut the door and protect yourself. And the interesting thing is if you listen to what they're saying, they're actually giving you hints about how they feel about themselves. They're showing you their weaknesses. If you pay attention, -- And I think, you know, that helps some of my clients to like, you know what?! I've carried this burden for so long. 
 You know, all these things you've said about me and my shortcomings and everything else. I've carried this weight for so long. I realized that came from you and your upbringing. But it's not mine to carry and I don't want it. And I think it's a mind shift that, you know, you can... You can use to strengthen yourself and strengthen your position. 

 Rose | 17:12
It's hard to find that strength, I think, after you've been put down so often and told you're not enough and all these other feelings come creeping in because you just don't feel like you even belong. Because I know a lot of narcissists, you know. And HIP! Mike Clark, Mike, They... Victim, you know, leave their family, leave their friends. 
 So you're isolated, you know, and it's hard to break out of that, cycle when you make that decision to leave. 

 Katherine | 17:56
Because I've found this to work and work really well that Okay. It's... When you are with the narcissist and you decide to surrender yourself to accept what they say about you as the truth, in order to survive, usually it's done to survive. You're like, okay, I surrender. I give up whatever you say. When you do that, you create the trauma bond. The trauma bond is where You know, you, it's like the narcissist and the victim are stuck together. 
 So to break the trauma bond, you have to pull away from There's the brainwashing. Realize that this is them, not you. And stand up to the lies because they're lies that were put into your mind. You have to stand up to the lies and choose to protect your inner child because that's who's getting hurt now. The abuser is gone. But now you're the abuser. You're abusing your inner child. And you have to break the cycle. And you break the cycle by recognizing that this is harmful to me. These are lies. This isn't me. I'm not going to take it anymore. When people do that, there's a switch. It's like the inner child hears this. And they kind of perk up. 
 And then... It's like... The feelings that you feel, the depression, the self-loathing, the anger, it's really your inner child. 
 So when you choose not to beat her up and comfort her or him instead... You start the healing process because research has shown that healing is impossible without self-compassion. You have to be kinder to yourself. Otherwise, healing is not going to happen. And to me, this is the critical, This is the crux of the situation. You have to stop beating yourself up. Because if you do that, you're doing what he did to you or she did to you. And there's a book by... It's called Inner Bonding by Margaret Paul. I found that book to be, it shows you clearly how this process works. And her end goal is to not just make you a better person, but a better lover, a better parent. 
 You know, it's across the board. This affects everybody in your life. 

 Rose | 20:53
Yeah, and, you know, I take on board what you've been saying about your inner child. You know, you have to heal that, you know, and it's sometimes hard. 
 I mean, especially in my case where, you know, abuse happened for a period of time, you know, during those critical times. Pre-teen and teen years. Where you're pretty vulnerable to the things that are being said to you and the brainwashing that's happening, to find the inner child and to heal it. 

 Katherine | 21:26
- Because when I started... Believing in the inner child, that's when my inner child spoke up. It was like two in the morning. She woke me up. She dictated two pages of notes. And I read it and my jaw dropped because I knew it wasn't me. It was somebody else, the style, what she said, it was just somebody else. And when I showed my therapist, her jaw dropped to the ground too, because we knew it wasn't me. And at that point, I had to say, you know what? Hands down, you're real. I can't deny it anymore. You are real. 
 You know my history. I believe you. And from then on, you know, I learned to walk with my inner child instead of fight her or abuse her. And to this day now, when I work with clients, my inner child is sniffing around trying to find their inner child. Which is kind of cool. 

 Rose | 22:33
Absolutely. Now, if you want to find out more about Katherine, you can find her on in a Facebook group called Narcissism Insights and on her website at kathrynmura.com. And she has a, she wants to promote her group, Narcissism Insights. What can people find in your group? Katherine. 

 Katherine | 22:54
Well, we're forming the group and I'm getting ready to launch my course. Reclaiming your life from narcissistic abuse. 
 So that is going to be released not too long from now. And then we're going to start really forming the groups and doing, as a follow-up to the course. 

 Rose | 23:21
And can people find the course on your website when it's up and going? 

 Katherine | 23:27
Wonderful. Katherine, can I ask you a question? Sorry. - Katherine Miura, dot com. 

 Rose | 23:35
Lovely. All right. Katherine, would you like to share anything else with us today? 

 Katherine | 23:43
I'd like to say, you know, There is hope. Even though you might feel like, you know, you're in a stuck place, there is hope. I came out of it. And I have a book about my journey, but There are ways out. And if you just keep putting one foot in front of the other and just learn to believe in yourself and... And get the book, Inner Bonding. It'll walk you out of this mess. 

 Rose | 24:16
Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I think we all need that little bit of a push sometimes that, you know, takes us away from the abuse that we've allowed ourselves to put up with. 
 You know, and a lot of times it's over a number of years. So I thank you for sharing your insights into narcissism, Katherine, and I thank you for joining me on the Healing Through Life podcast today. 

 Katherine | 24:40
Thank you so much for having me. 

 Voiceover | 24:45
Thank you for joining us for this episode of Healing Through Love. You can get further resources See the show notes or simply reach out to us via our website at htlaustralia.org. Thanks so much for joining us and we look forward to your company next time on the Healing Through Love podcast.